Our old friend Billy Berrou has actually had some good ideas (i.e., ideas that I agree with) mixed in with his rantings. Let's try to compile a list.
- West Coast teams travel too much.
- Some people hold on to the disc for too long.
- Elite teams cheat on the mark.
- You can be a triple threat by throwing the disc for yards, dishing it to someone who then makes a throw for yards, or doing the give and go for yards.
- Sometimes it is about position and not yards.
- The swimmy swim is the move of the future.
What am I missing?
I'll expound on just two of these for now.
Some people hold on to the disc for too long. We'll sometimes play a "three second O", where we pretend that the stall count is 3 (except it doesn't actually count as a stall if you get to 3). As you might expect, the disc moves quickly, but what you might not expect is that you can still make long cuts and other cuts for yardage. To play this O, you need to be able to anticipate, both as a cutter and as a thrower. Basketball stat geek Dean Oliver, author of Basketball on Paper and a good friend of some West Coast frisbee players, suggested that one good metric for the fluidity of an offense would be how long it takes to release the disc. And who can forget Jam's unstoppable Plinko offense?
The triple threat. Right now, there is a hierarchy in throwing options. You look to throw for yards, then if that's not there, you look to get the disc into better position, and then after that maybe you cut for the give and go. Perhaps it would make for a more efficient offense if throwers looked to dish it as a primary option.
Or, we can just continue to pile on, which is fun.
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In the offense I taught the Purdue women this year, if you caught the disc on a comeback cut, your first look was to throw a short pass to space, usually slightly back and out to the open side. One of the handlers bahind the disc would run on to the disc, and then look to throw deep (or forward anyway).
So basically, you catch the disc and your first look is to throw roughly in the direction you're already facing. A fairly Huguenardesqe concept, actually. But then again, Frank did not the first person to come up with this idea (and neither am I).
One idea that he did come up with that seems at least worth trying is the idea of having a representative of each team that is empowered to call travels from the sideline. I don't think travelling should be a turnover, but travelling (unlike basically every other violation) can be hard to notice while you're playing.
And I don't think you can give Frank and credit for the idea that "elite teams cheat on the mark". People have been complaining about this for at least five years.
"Elite teams cheat on the mark" ... are you referring to the defensive tactic of running your man over as soon as he catches the disc, resulting in (uncontested) foul calls & disrupted flow? Or is it something else that I've never played 'elite' enough teams to see?
I am referring to the amount of contact initiated by the marker on the thrower.
7. becoming more ambidextrous.
short flick dumps (up or back) are rarily preferred, so cutting for the backhand, wherever that might be, is often the best place to go. if the thrower had a short lefty and righty backhand, cutting for him/her while standing < 8 yards away (in the upfield and backfield) would be easy. i liken it to being able to finish around the rim [or soccer goal mouth] with both hands [feet]. of course frank takes it to far with his off handed flat footed hucking... which is like shooting a 3-pointer with your off hand because the ball was in that hand.
8. use of "negative space"
I assume you are referring to this with the Sometimes it is about position and not yards. comment. Although Frank takes it a little to far for my taste (gladly tossing the disc 15-30 yards backwards when he has the disc on the goal line), the fact that people tend to not make use of the space behind the disc, especially when the defense concedes all passes there, is undeniable. how many times is a 10-15 yard dump backwards open, but instead we force something that loses fewer yards at stall 9.. resulting in a turnover?
dude, idris is billy.
http://tinyurl.com/9glwe
or, wait, billy is idris?
http://tinyurl.com/chyq4
Does anyone not horrible besides Studarus routinely throw passes with both hands? And if you actually care whether you travel, can you easily position yourself to throw lefty? Maybe if you developed a pass somewhere between a push pass and a lift, you could use that in place of the forehand dump.
Re: position not space. I hadn't fully figured out what I meant. I think I considered it in terms of the second threat, getting it to someone who is in position to throw for yards. It also includes throwing the dump or just getting it off the line, when it preserves possession and/or gives you a better angle of attack.
Any pass that puts the receiver in a power position, as we call it, is a good one. A power position is one where you can huck it without a mark, generally occurring on leading passes with the cutter cutting straight toward the sideline or away from the thrower.
It seems that most yardage gains come from a series of low stall count passes, rather than from isolated comeback cuts. This is easier to picture in a good zone offense, where the handlers diddle until they can break the cup, and then the downfield players fast break as far as they can go.
So, getting back to Frank, he would like throwers and cutters to consider their throws and cuts in terms of offensive flow (the motion offense) rather than as strictly a yardage battle.
I'm a righty. But I throw lots of short lefty backhands. I find them much easier than short righty flicks. Very useful in a zone or on the goal line. Breaking with a high release also opens up a whole new little space to throw to- a short IO forehand with touch is tough.
I'm sure it looks silly, but I still keep my left pivot foot. Step with the right and throw across the body. Breaks all the "rules", I know.
I started doing this in coed as a response to facing male markers and their correspondingly larger wingspans. They don't expect the lefty backhand.
And then there was regionals in Wisconsin in 2002. There was such a fierce crosswind that the game dissolved into hucking for field position. The D focussed on taking away backhands... so I started hucking lefty. Then they started to think I was a lefty, so they switched the mark and I finally got off a backhand which actually got caught and eventually resulted in a score.
I think the off hand throw definitely has its uses.
-not horrible
Daryl (KAOS, Jam, Rhino) throws a ton of lefty break mark backhands... and unlike _most_ people, doesn't travel. Add to the fact he has a killer low forehand, he can pretty much get a 10-15 yard break mark pass of at will when forced forehand (no timing or faking required).
Personally, I throw push passes in most instances a lefty backhand would be usefull. W/O bothering with the details though, there are times when a lefty backhand can do more than a push pass.
one thing I do see recently with college players, many like to throw shorty lefty backhands... but it often comes at the expense of having any sort of short flick. And that is unacceptable... off handed passes should compliment, not bail out, situations where a flick might not be perfect.
You probably didn't intend for this thread to degenerate to discussion of lefty throws, but...
Sometimes, it is more sure than a really short flick. But also, I throw them sometimes because it's easier based on my body position to get the lefty off quickly. When I've been facing the mark and something requires a quick throw, dumps against a backhand force (especially in zone) and short forward passes against a flick force are often faster. Most of the time, people don't realize that I made the pass lefty. That said, aside from the idea that it's good to be able to release a short pass quickly however you happen to be holding the disc, I'm not sure I'd encourage people to start by learning lefties. [And yes, that begs the question, "why are you holding it in your non-throwing hand", but that's a different issue.]
I still haven't got an answer on a) why Worm only hucks lefty backhands, or 2) why he never gets called for traveling.
Establishing a ground game is the key to success. After all, three things can happen when you pass the disc, and two of them are bad.
Is that Woody Hayes who said that? This is a classic example of misunderstanding probabilities, like the person who thinks that if there are only two options available, it's 50/50.
i thought woody hayes said, 'come over here, i want to punch you.'
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